Email Correspondence from Jan 12, 2017 to Feb 24, 2017

Not all emails are listed (ie) replies with 'Thank you... etc'  - Some Emails not in order of Date maybe Subject -
Can Search Key words - Index below is in order of Dates

RE:  Deb   dtparks58@gmail.com
I do track Baker….like my Thurmans, a group left Hanover County VA and ended up in Cumberland County KY!   And what do you know, the Bakers were on Matadequin Creek just like the Thurmans, Whites, and Talleys.

From: Frederick Sorrell [mailto:spamsorrell@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 1:47 PM
To: Deborah Parks <dtparks58@gmail.com>; Michael Talley <mtalley@o2online.de>; Don White <dwhite@hbwvlaw.com>; Ed Neal <geneal@volcano.net>

All...I'm back in the hunt again after being sidelined due to surgery in early December. Russell Sorrell shares a common ancestor with me and that is George Sorrell (our brick wall). Russell is through Etheldred Sorrell (one of George's sons) and I am through Greene Sorrell (another son of George Sorrell).  I have corresponded with Bruce Baker (who was listed as a 37 marker match with a distance of 3 on a spreadsheet I put together in 2010/2). He is a cousin to Russell and is a descendent of Etheldred and his son William Walker Sorrell(e) and administers Russell's information as Bruce is more enthusiastic about genealogy. Baker is not a surname I track in my research.

All...I'm back in the hunt again after being sidelined due to surgery in early December. Russell Sorrell shares a common ancestor with me and that is George Sorrell (our brick wall). Russell is through Etheldred Sorrell (one of George's sons) and I am through Greene Sorrell (another son of George Sorrell).  I have corresponded with Bruce Baker (who was listed as a 37 marker match with a distance of 3 on a spreadsheet I put together in 2010/2). He is a cousin to Russell and is a descendent of Etheldred and his son William Walker Sorrell(e) and administers Russell's information as Bruce is more enthusiastic about genealogy. Baker is not a surname I track in my research.

FYI...I am currently focusing on our related-names in England during Colonial and pre-Colonial times. My interest is primarily in the social relationships forged there that may have been the reasons for the eventual clustering in Henrico/New Kent/Hanover (and other close by counties).  I'm currently looking at the descendent children of mayors, aldermen, and sheriffs (with an occasional sequestered/persecuted clergyman thrown in).

5 Attachments from Deb: RE: (only 2 posted below)

Baker's Mill on Matadequin Creek

1782 Hanover Co VA Tax- Martin Baker

Not posted here are 3 documents that Deb sent Fred: dtparks58@gmail.com

1. Martin Baker will of Hanover Co VA with daughter Mary Britton.
2. Walton will that connects to Baker family of Hanover Co VA
3. Parish register Middlesex county VA

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From Deb   dtparks58@gmail.com

Surname 'White' Wills of VA - Index of names by county 1632-1800.

Email from Deb fowarding a list of 'White' Wills provided by: Elizabeth Edmonds:

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 Jan 18, 2017     Back to Index^

From Deb   dtparks58@gmail.com

PDF Attachment Below: Christ Church of Middlesex Co VA

'White 's on pages: 27, 29, 85, 143, 155, 169, 184"

Eliz page 27, 29, 143
Jas          27
Thos        27, 85
Wm          184
Fra           155
Jno           143, 155, 169

I have been working with Elizabeth Edmonds (a Hanover Co VA White descendant – your distant cousin J) on the early White records.  My initial goal was to try and sort out the multiple John Whites who were running around Hanover, Henrico, King William, New Kent, Louisa Counties prior to 1750.  While doing so, Elizabeth shared with me the attached Christ Church record of Middlesex County VA (but also Lancaster Co).  By the way, the Rappahannock River flows through or around Middlesex County.  Do I have the correct river for your Whites, Mike?  There are so many rivers that begin with ‘R’ in Virginia that I admittedly get them confused.  If I have the right river, check out the index of the record for James White.  In 1684/5 he and his wife Elizabeth lived in Hanover Co VA but they had their son Thomas White baptized at Christ Church in Middlesex.  WHY?  Mike, has your White research taken you to Middlesex Co VA?

Sure would like to know more about this James White.  If you have any docs that connect Whites to Middlesex or Lancaster, please share.

Click Here to Display PDF File:

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 Jan 21, 2017      Back to Index^

From Deb   dtparks58@gmail.com

Barrett White and John White in Bible - John White Deed Records: See Images below:

Thanks to Elizabeth Edmonds’ grit, we now have a new record that brings fresh thought to the research on Barrett White.  Elizabeth noted that a book written by Benjamin Franklin entitled Confessions of Faith was used as a source document for membership to the SAR and DAR.  She put Bob White on the hunt and he contacted Dr. Paula Skreslet, the Rare Books Curator at the Union Seminary Library in Richmond.  Dr. Skreslet found the book and scanned the attached pages. 

The findings in this book are twofold.

1)  A complete listing of all the children born to Barret White and his wife Elizabeth Starke are included

2)  The author of the family record in the Ben Franklin book lists a John White Sr. and Katherine White, his wife, who both died in 1758 just 3
     days apart – the relationship to Barrett White is not stated.

So, we have a new source that is consistent with the Barret White Bible concerning the listing of his children.  But this new source also provides us with some new information that conflicts with our “thinking” of who Barrett White’s parents were.

First, to my knowledge, there is no record that states who the parents of Barrett White were.  Am I wrong?  If so, please share the doc that lists Barrett White’s parents.  If there is no document listing the parents of Barrett White, I think it is safe to say that we as researchers made some assumptions.  But if we had never seen or heard of these assumptions, we would have looked at the entries of John White Sr. and Katherine White in the Benjamin Franklin book with fresh eyes.  Although the relationship isn’t stated, we would have probably assumed that John White Sr. and Katherine White were Barrett’s parents.  Using the years and ages provided for Katherine White, she would have been about 36 years of age when she gave birth to Barrett.  Why is our thinking clouded to the new evidence that Barrett White’s father was most likely John White Sr.?  Because we have somehow assumed that the John White Jr. and Katherine White Brane of the  1758 Louisa County deed (attached) were Barrett’s parents.

The 1758 Louisa Co VA deed (where the surviving children of John White Jr. lend their real and personal property inheritance to their mother Catherine Brane for her life) does not mention Barrett White.  And I know that this fact has bothered many White researchers.  And there were many theories developed as to why Barrett wasn’t listed.  But none of them sang true – especially since the deed isn’t really a division of John White Jr.’s estate but rather it is the adult children taking care of their mother, Katherine Brane.  If Barrett was their child, he should have been listed.

The attached Louisa County deed was transcribed by someone years ago and has been passed along the internet highway.  I’ve never seen the original.  Do any of you have it?  If not, I think it is time to order it.  In the transcribed version, the date is 1758 and makes reference to a will that was recorded in Hanover County.  And note that from the time John White Jr.’s will was written to the time of the deed, the names of his daughters and wife had changed.  (I haven’t seen the will and not sure a copy exists today).  For all those marriages of John White Jr.’s daughters and wife to have taken place, John White Jr. must have died a couple years before the deed was written up and signed.  And it would appear that all of John White Jr.’s children came of age by 1764 (St. Paul’s Parish Record).

Given that John White Jr. shows up in the St. Paul’s Parish record for the first time in 1731, I estimate that his birth year was about 1710.  If he was the first born son of John White Sr., Katherine would have been about 19 when John was born.

I realize this may seem like a paradigm.  But it is a shift in thinking that makes sense.  At least it explains why accepting the theories about John White Jr. being Barrett’s father felt like plugging a round hole with a square peg.

 Jan 21, 2017     Back to Index^

Michael Talley - Replies to Deb (1)
mtalley@o2online.de

It seems to me that the only possible solution is that both John White Sr. d. ca 1644 and his son John White Jr. 1695-1758 were married to someone named Catherine and that the (Jr.) in the 1758 document was inserted in error. The John White whose widow was Catherine Baine and who had orphans has to be the one who died in 1744 since the younger John White was still living at the time. The other Catherine, presumably Catherine Barrett would then be the wife of the younger John White who died 3 days before her in Dec 1758 several months after the Louisa Co. Devise settling the estate with the orphans. Barrett would then in this case be the son of the younger John White as according to the new document.

 Jan 21, 2017     Back to Index^

Michael Talley - Replies to Deb (2)
mtalley@o2online.de

In light of the death dates of John White Sr. (1744) and Jr. (1758) who is this John White who processioned the land of the elder John White’s orphans in 1760?

 Jan 21, 2017      Back to Index^

Deb Responds to Michael Talley above: (1)
From Deb   dtparks58@gmail.com

Great – discussion….this is what we need to sort these Whites out!

Michael, Your questions show exactly why we need to sort ALL of these John Whites out.  There were SOOOO many and I believe that their lives and actions have been combined.

1. Your wrote:
“In light of the death dates of John White Sr. (1744) and Jr. (1758)”
Take another look at the attachment.  It reads, “John White Sr. departed this life the 27^th day of December 1758 being in the 63^rd year of his age” – So John White Sr. died in December 1758.

The ONLY record that I know of that gives us a timeframe for John White Jr.’s death is the Louisa Co deed of July 1758.  But did he died in 1758?  His estate was being somewhat administered in Louisa County – although his will was filed in Hanover County.  Since the time of his death, John White Jr’s wife has remarried to Robert Brane and his daughters have married.  So it is very possible that John White Jr. died between 1755 – 1757.

2.  Who is this John White who processioned the land of the elder John White’s orphans in 1760?

Below is a snippet of the entry you reference.  I do not know who the John White was that processioned the land of precinct 16 in 1759.  But if you’ll notice, he is not listed as one who owned land in the precinct.  Could have been an oversight in the listing of names?  Or perhaps he was one of the “orphans” that just came of age and was still living on the land with Robert and Katherine (White) Brane?  If so, that would be consistent with your thought of this John White being a nephew of Barrett White (assuming that Barrett White was a brother to John White Jr.)

 Jan 21, 2017      Back to Index^
Deb Responds to Michael Talley above: (2)
From Deb   dtparks58@gmail.com

Perhaps I need to ask my question about Barrett White’s father in a different way….so many people believe that Barrett White was the son of John White Jr. and his widow Katherine (who remarried to Robert Brane).  Where is the proof in that theory?
 

Jan 21, 2017      Back to Index^

Michael Talley - Replies to Deb (3)
mtalley@o2online.de

Here is my interpretation of the data as we have it


1. John White Sr (Jr? - mlw). d. 1744 m. 1st unknown 2nd Catherine (later wife of Robert Braine)
Children of John White Sr. and unknown.

1. John White Jr. b. 1695 baptized 1697 d. Dec 1758 m. Catherine b. 1691 d. Dec 1758
2. Samuel White
3. James White
4. …

Children of John White Sr. and Catherine (later wife of Robert Braine)

1. Edith
2. Elisha
3. William
4. Tillah
5. Helena Maria
6. Martha

2. John White Jr. b. 1695 d. Dec 1758 m. Catherine
Children of John White Jr. and Catherine

1. Barrett White
2. …

Unknown Relation John White processioned land in 1760
 

 Jan 21, 2017      Back to Index^
Deb Responds to Michael Talley above: (3)
From Deb   dtparks58@gmail.com

So, if John and Katherine White were the parents of Barrett White, then they were also the recipients of the attached 1705 land grant on Beaverdam/Chickahominey Swamp.  The land from this grant was later held by Barret White and his heirs.  And it is referenced in the “sketches” book about Hugh A. White’s life (a Barrett descendant) that this land on Beaverdam is where his ancestors had lived upt o 160 earlier than the civil war – placing us right about 1700-1705.

 Jan 21, 2017      Back to Index^

Michael Talley - Replies to Deb (4)
mtalley@o2online.de

Jr. and Sr. during that time period did not mean a familial relationship although that was sometimes the case. It often meant that there were two by that name and one was older than the other. Often a Jr. thus became a Sr. later in life. I am using it however to distinguish between John White d. 1744 and his son John White b. 1695 d. 1758 whose baptism is recorded in St. Peter’s Parish registry:

“John son of John White baptis. the 30 May, 1697.”

Clearly the younger is the one who died in 1758 three days before his wife Catherine and the older died in 1744 leaving orphans and a wife named Catherine who married Robert Braine. It is not possible that the younger John White is the one who is referred to as Jr. in the device from Louisa Co as he was still living. So it has to be the older. “(Jr.)” could be a mistake in the transcription or there was an even older John White.

As for the younger John White being called Sr. in the record of his death. It is clear that there was at the time a younger John White who processioned the land of the older John White’s orphans in 1760. My guess is that this new John White would be a brother of Barrett and is actually John White III.

 Jan 21, 2017      Back to Index^

Michael Talley - Replies to Deb (5)
mtalley@o2online.de

No consensus here! John White the father of Barrett was only 10 years old in 1705. It had to be his father, John White the vestryman who died in 1744.
 

 Jan 21, 2017      Back to Index^

Elizabeth Edmonds - Replies to Deb & Michael (1)
edmondselizabeth1@gmail.com

Hello:

What proof do you have that a related John White died in 1744? And where did he live? The only John White record for 1744 that I found was an Administrator's bond filed in Prince William County, i.e. Manassas, VA area.

Also, it is correct that Jr. and Sr. weren't always used to designate father and son; however, often when Sr. died, Jr. became Sr. So, that is tricky to rely on at different times.

In my investigation, there are John Whites all over the place, including 1) John White who was married to Katherine/Catherine/Catharine, both of whom died in Dec. 1758, according to Elizabeth Starke White's Confession of Faith; 2) John White of Hanover County whose estate was being adjudicated in July 1758; 3) Barrett and Elizabeth Starke White's John White who died in Augusta, GA in 1779; 4) John White of Louisa County who fought in the Revolutionary War and was a son of Col William White of Louisa Co.and was still alive in 1824, but apparently not in 1852 when his son Chapman served as administrator. Those are the ones where I have documented death information without reviewing everything I have.

Then, I also have in the William S. White-copied Bible record a statement: John White Sen. departed this life on the 22nd day of Sept 1(and a huge ink blob) in the 53rd year of his age. Does anyone have any record of a John White dying Sept 22nd of any year? (See attached)

The naming tradition was to name the eldest son after the husband's father. So, if a father named John had 4 sons, there are 4 more Johns, and it increases every generation. Which is why it will really help to have dates for these people.

I've also started looking at the Price family because of unsubstantiated reports that some of John White's sons married Prices, and that Mary daughter of Col White of Hanover County married a Price. Anybody know anything about the Prices?

Thanks. Liz

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 Jan 22, 2017      Back to Index^

Michael Talley - Replies to Deb (5)     
mtalley@o2online.de

This is the John White who was the father of the John White who died in 1758. Their relationship is confirmed in the Registry of St. Peter’s Parish when the baptism of the younger John White is recorded. St. Peter’s was later divided creating St. Paul’s in the northern Portion. St. Paul’s parish became Hanover County in 1720.

 Jan 22, 2017      Back to Index^

Elizabeth Edmonds - Replies to Deb & Michael (2)
edmondselizabeth1@gmail.com

Thanks, Michael:

That's hugely helpful. I think you are right about two Catherine Whites.

I've attached a copy of the Prince William County bond, as well as a summary of it and the LVA reference. It helps me to know what else is out there and what names may be relevant, i.e. William Wyatt, John Haddock and Elizabeth (E) Bailey. Wyatt was the maiden name of Anna Starke, wife of John, and parents of Elizabeth Starke who married Barrett White. I've seen John Haddock's name before but don't remember the context.

I'm also attaching a 1850s map of some of Hanover County. I think some of you are interested in this area, and it shows who lived where then. I think a lot of these families had been there for decades. Hanover Courthouse is just beyond River Road to the North. King William County also is North of the Pamunkey River. Meadow Bridge is southwest of the intersection of the railroad and Chickahominy with Henrico Co south of the Chickahominy. Mechanicsville is a bit east and south of that.

Since I'm adding additional information, I've been wondering about the Crenshaw family. We have information that Henry White married a Crowshaw. He has been listed as the father of John; father of John; father of Barrett; father of William, Philip, Thomas, John (who diodes a young man) and many daughters. I recently read that the Crowshaw name evolved into Crenshaw; however, I have not investigated them. Any thoughts on that?

Finally, I'm sending the two-page summary of my White family, so you can understand why I am convinced that they were on the Chickahominy from at least 1680 until the property gradually was sold in the early 1800s (but apparently some of it was retained by the extended family for a while). Liz
 

John White Bond 1744

John white Prince William Co Va

Genealogy - William S White Title Page 202

Hanover Co VA 1850-1860 Map

 Jan 22, 2017      Back to Index^

Michael Talley - Replies to Deb & Elizabeth (6)
mtalley@o2online.de

I just spent several hours going over St. Paul’s Parish registry again with a new look based on the death of John White Jr. in 1758. It cleared up a lot of things and allowed me to get a much clearer picture of who is who. The outline below includes every White in the registry. I compared neighbors in detail to trace the land to avoid problems caused by changing precinct numbers. I am convinced that I correctly identified all of the duplicates unless there is a second Elisha/Elias. But I don’t think there is a Jr. was used consistently when two with the same name were listed at the same time unless one of the two was dead, in which case that was indicated as well. I am also convinced that the third John White is the son of John White Jr. I also assigned James to John White Jr. based on the fact that he did not receive land from John White Sr. as both Jr. and Samuel clearly did and he was not one of the orphans. He also did not appear related to Samuel based on land proximity although that would be a possibility. The fact the he obtained land from Matheson doesn’t lend itself to him being an outsider not of the family because Matheson was a neighbor of the original White land which was always procession by either John Sr, Jr or the III.

Feel free to ask questions or to disagree.

1. John White Sr. (first appearance in St. Paul’s Parish in 1695 as Surveyor of high ways, lived on land near Thurmans, original White land in Hanover)

1.1. John White Jr. (first appearance in 1731, lived on second parcel of White land in father’s possession since at least 1711)

1.1.1. John White III. (called “Jr.” in the records until the death of John White Jr. in 1758. first appeared in 1755 to procession his grandfather’s orphan’s   land in possession of Robert Braine.)

1.1.2. James White (first appeared the same year as John White III (1755). obtained land form Matheson which apparently fell in two precincts, one of which was his grandfather’s precinct. Died before Sept. 30, 1767)

1.1.2.1. James White Jr. (first appeared in 1767 to procession the land of James White’s heirs, never called Jr. in the record)

1.1.3. Barrett White (first appeared in 1759 after the death of John White Jr. had two parcel’s of land including the one from his father.)

1.1.3.1. Thomas White (first appeared in 1783 as newly elected vestryman)

1.2. Samuel White (first appeared in 1731, lived on third parcel of White land in father’s possession since at least 1719, land next to Talleys/Durhams)

1.2.1. David White (first appeared in 1771 next to Samuel)

1.3. Elisha White, Capt. & Vestryman (first appeared in 1759 after the 1758 devise in Lousia County, had multiple land holdings including at least part of the original White land that had been in the possession of Robert Braine.

1.4. William White (never appears in St. Paul’s registry.)

 Jan 22, 2017      Back to Index^

Deb Responds to Michael Talley above:
From Deb   dtparks58@gmail.com

I agree….the Sr. Jr. labeling can be tricky – especially once Sr. dies – and Jr. becomes Sr. And like you said, Sr. and Jr. didn’t always mean father and son. My purpose is to open discussion about the John and Katherine White who died in 1758. Thank you for engaging. I think this new record that Elizabeth and Bob have dug up is very important. And since no one seems to have a copy of the original Louisa instrument, I will order a copy.

Now, please take a look at these two records. What isn’t adding up for me is why a man so involved in St. Paul’s Parish (Hanover County and what later became Louisa County) would have his son baptized in another parish. I know I may be splitting hairs here….but it just doesn’t seem right – but may be that is how it happened. But it makes me wonder.

1695, July 29 – John White of St. Paul’s Parish was appointed overseer of clearing the roads in lower Hanover County

(from the New Kent Co line/Elder Swamp to Beaverdam Swamp).

1697, May 30 – John White had his son, John, baptized at St. Peter’s parish (at this time New Kent County)

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 Jan 23, 2017      Back to Index^

Michael Talley - Replies to Deb above
mtalley@o2online.de

St. Paul’s Parish was not founded until 1704. The 1695 reference to John White is from the records of 1706 when the original order was referenced in a vestry meeting.

 Jan 23, 2017      Back to Index^

Deb Responds to Michael Talley above:
From Deb   dtparks58@gmail.com

Right!  So, how do you interpret the very broken up St. Paul’s Vestry record? St. Paul’s wasn’t formed at that time….so did this mean John White had been appointed when the road area in question (lower Hanover from Elder Swamp to Beaverdam Swamp) belonged to St. Peter’s parish in 1695? And that this clearing of roadways was finally being carried out when St Paul’s was formed in 1704?

 Jan 23, 2017      Back to Index^

Michael Talley - Replies to Deb above
mtalley@o2online.de

Deborah,

In answer to your questions,  probably so. This area was still fairly primitive. John White already had the mill in 1695 but he did not obtain an actual grant for the land until 1705. I am assuming he had a connection to John Robinson. John Robinson, assuming it is the same person, and I think it probably is, was one of the first settlers of Virginia, the Robinsons are listed among the first families. John Robinson Jr. opposed Patrick Henry’s famous speech.

 Jan 23, 2017      Back to Index^

Deb Responds to Michael Talley above:
From Deb   dtparks58@gmail.com

According to the vestry records, the first and only property that John White had processioned in 1707/8 was his land in lower Hanover County, Precinct 33 with Thurman, Trotman, Garret, and Woody. The first time John White shows up with two properties (lower Hanover and Beaverdam) is in 1711. But my eyes begin to glaze over while reading the parish records, so I could have missed an earlier procession for the Beaverdam property. I know he received the land grant for the Beaverdam property in 1705/6 but he doesn’t have it processed until 1711. This makes me think he was originally living in lower Hanover.

 Jan 23, 2017      Back to Index^

Michael Talley - Replies to Deb above
mtalley@o2online.de

However, Precincts 31 and 32 are missing from the record in 1708. Edward Clark and Thomas Bailey were also missing which likely means the White land was in either 31 or 32. There happens to be another entry including both Edward Clark and Thomas Bailey requiring them to build a bridge in 1707/8 so they should have been there.

The White land of the Thurman’s precinct eventually wound up in the hands of Elisha White. It was still in his hands as late as 1784 when the last processioning was recorded. After 1771 this land was included in the same precinct with the Talleys and Samuel White. I am guessing if it was not at beaver dam it was closer to the Talley Pond area. Do we know what happened to his land after that.

 Jan 24, 2017      Back to Index^

Deb Responds to Michael Talley above:
From Deb   dtparks58@gmail.com

I took another look at the vestry minutes and I think you are possibly right – that there are some pages, or torn pages that may have shown John White’s mill property on Beaverdam.

But I’m not sure that all the original John White land in lower Hanover ended up in Elisha’s hands. This is due to the appearance of James White in 1755. James White showed up in the processional records with land adjacent to or very near the original John White land in lower Hanover that stretched over precincts 16 & 25 in 1755. I believe he was an orphan to come of age and receive his share of land along Matadequin Creek.

I believe that Don White either descends from this James White or the James & Sarah White who inherited land from his father, John White of King William County, on Hollowing Creek. So all the James Whites are very important to us.
 

 Jan 24, 2017      Back to Index^

Michael Talley - Replies to Deb above
mtalley@o2online.de

James White bought the estate of Doctor Farquhar Matheson who land was in the two precincts you mentioned (see below). The other precinct mentions the transaction in 1759 but James White was listed in that precinct in 1755 as well. I believe the transaction occurred before then. I don’t think James was one of the orphans as he is not listed among them. That leaves son of John Jr. as the most likely option. I am not sure exactly where this land was, but I don’t think it was part of the original White land in the precinct.

 Jan 29, 2017      Back to Index^

Deb Responds to Michael Talley above:
From Deb   dtparks58@gmail.com

I’ve attached my analysis of James White’s lands in precincts 16 and 25.  I believe the two precincts were adjacent to one another and that Dr. Mathesons (and James White’s lands) extended across the boundary line of the two precincts.
 

 Jan 23, 2017      Back to Index^

Deb Responds to Michael Talley above:
From Deb   dtparks58@gmail.com

I know that was a LOT of work to go through the entire parish record and work all that out. Thank you for sharing, Michael.

The 1695 presence of John White in St. Paul’s parish (New Kent County at that time) has disturbed me as I have not been able to find a land grant or other record to connect John to land in New Kent at that time. But yet, he must have “owned” land somehow or the vestrymen of the parish wouldn’t have depended upon him to take on such an important position in 1695.

So far, and thanks to Elizabeth, the only early New Kent record I have for a White is attached and was 9 years earlier in 1686. It is actually a Christ Church record of Middlesex County that refers to James and Elizabeth White of New Kent. And although they were from New Kent (St. Peter’s or Blissland Parish at that time) they went to Christ Church to have their son Thomas baptized. WHY???? The reference to the baptism is on page 27. So, it is possible that John White of 1695 New Kent County was living on land that was connected to this James White – who had been in New Kent 9 years before John White showed up.

I’m hoping that there are more records out there that we can use to kind of “triangulate” these Whites into shape!

Page 27 - Thomas White Baptized -
click PDF link below page 27 for complete CC Rcd.

Click Here to Display PDF File:
 

 Jan 23, 2017      Back to Index^

Michael Talley - Replies to Deb above
mtalley@o2online.de

From the 1765 to Barrett White granting him the land that was granted to John White in 1705:

[part of this land became part of Barrett White's]

“200 acres grant first being formerly granted to John Robinson by letters patent bearing date the 21st day of October 1687, the right and title whereof is since become vested in the said Barrett White”

The 1687 grant is attached.

The eight names of persons transported:

1. Jno Ellis
2. __ B______
3. Wm Harris
4. Jno Chambers?
5. Wm Tally?
6. Eliza Jones?
7. James Harris
8. Jno Woody

Please take a look at these names to see if you agree with my transcription. If I am correct, this is the first mention of Talleys in Hanover. John son of William Talley was baptized two years later in 1689. It would fit the pattern if William was sent back to England for education and returned via passage payed for by a neighbor. Some of Williams children were brought back later by John Mask. The other names are all the last names of neighbors in later records, several or all of them may have been returning school children.

John Robinson does not appear to have settled on the land himself as he is not in the early processioning records or the quit rent rolls of 1704. John White however paid quit rent on two properties of 320 and 190 acres. One year later he received a patent for 211 acres which were part of the original 350 acre grant. Barretts portion later was 200 acres plus 73 acres never before granted. The water level of the swamp at the time of a survey could change the acreage significantly.

The attached map includes the land in question. The house built by the Whites is just off of Aquarius Drive. (Map below)

Land Grant to John Robinson 21 Oct 1687 (later part of this land becames Barrett White's)

White Home Place -  Hanover Co VA - Aqurius Drive

 Jan 23, 2017      Back to Index^

Deb Responds to Michael Talley above:
From Deb   dtparks58@gmail.com

You may be right on Wm Tally – but a while back I had transcribed that grant and “saw” Nelly. Look at the other capital “Ts” in the grant – the author seemed to make their Ts differently. But that’s just me.

For the second name of the transportees, I “saw” Edward Brandon or Brendon. So difficult to read.

I agree that John Robinson never took possession of the land grant given to him. As a result, Barret White was allowed to purchase it and add to his inherited holdings along Beaverdam Creek.

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 Jan 24, 2017      Back to Index^

Elizabeth Edmonds - Replies to Michael Talley (see White Home Place map above)
edmondselizabeth1@gmail.com

I have been to the White house, and wandered around the neighborhood. I did not know that the house existed, until the National Park Service historian told my sister and me when we were visiting at Gaines Mill National Battlefield.

In 2005, my sister and I wandered around outside the property. The nearby land was being developed and new houses were being built.

I also got inside subsequently when I accidentally (really!) locked my keys in the car when I got out to take a photo. So, I asked the inhabitants to use their phone to call a locksmith. They were renters. They left me with their teenage son in the dining room, but I never really got to see anything because I didn't think I should take advantage of the son. It had been "renovated."

The Hugh A. White Sketches and A History of the Richmond Howitzer Battalion describes the battle near the house. William S. White, who was a son of Philip B. White and grandson of William White (but not as some have thought a son of William S. White) fought next to the house in sight of the family graveyard. I haven't been able to find out what happened to the graveyard, or where it was, i.e. near the house or near the creek. I left a message for the home owner to see if he knew anything, but got no response.

The younger son referred to in Hugh's Sketches was my great grandfather, Thomas S. White. Hugh was sick in Lexington at the time.

Here are the 2 references to the graveyard (in one attachment). Even though William White had sold most of the property by the time he died in 1820, he was buried in that graveyard. I don't know if any other Whites ended up there. It would be really helpful if any maps show the graveyard because it may be possible to pursue this further if we knew where it was on the property.
 

Jan 24, 2017      Back to Index^

Michael Talley - Replies to Elizabeth  above
mtalley@o2online.de

I have my own copy of the “Vestry Book” and most other available Hanover records J I assume Deborah does as well. We tend to share these things whenever we find them. We are always looking for more. We are well aware of the “other” Beaver Dam as the Whites had land up that way as well. In 2015 I spent a few days in Hanover and drove by the White’s old house in the middle of the battlefield with Fred.

I have spent countless hours entering data from the Vestry record into spreadsheets to identify the precincts even when the numbers and or borders changed. I wish we had an actual precinct map from any given year in the 1700s.

I have also read both of the accounts of the war from your family and have started on the William S White book that you sent a quote from. I was able to find the complete book online.

It is good to have you in our group. We used to be this active all the time, but things had gotten quiet for a while. Deborah got us stirred back up with her recent find.

 Jan 24, 2017      Back to Index^

Elizabeth Edmonds - Replies to HP Group
edmondselizabeth1@gmail.com

Sorry, i spent forever finding and scanning the attachment, then forgot to send it!

Find a Grave mentions a Walnut Lane Cemetery Hanover Co VA, which mostly was scattered unidentified gravestones that were removed for development. GenWeb gives a better description (attached) That may be it.

I've been to a cemetery behind a stone wall on the lot of a house with a rambler. I'm not sure if it's the same. It included Sydnors, but the information isn't in my Sydnor file, so I'll have to check further.

I'll try to find out what happened to the stones because there may have been pieces. Liz

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 Feb 02, 2017      Back to Index^

Deb Responds and Writes to HP Group
From Deb   dtparks58@gmail.com

Discussion on Rev Alexander White of King William Co VA and his possible
connection to the White's of Hanover or our the HP Group.

From: Deborah Parks [mailto:dtparks58@gmail.com]
Subject: Re: Rev. Alexander White

All

My point in sending the Rev Alexander White info to you all was not to imply any specific relationship but a general one. If you look at all the King William White docs you learn that they migrated to Spotsylvania and Hanover. Maybe more places but these for sure. And we know that one of John White's sons, James White married to Sarah inherited the land from his father on Hollowing Creek.

Also if you look at the Historic Homes of Hanover book regarding the home called Beaverdam, I believe the authors made a mistake. The combined the Rev War Capt Wm White who lived in the township of Beaverdam near Hollowing Creek (not on the Beaverdam mill creek). I believe they accidentally blended the two Beaverdams.

The point being that we don't know if the King Wm Whites were genetically related to Don, Del, or another line all together.

Deb


On Feb 1, 2017,  Don White wrote:

 Feb 02, 2017      Back to Index^

Michael Talley - to HP Group
mtalley@o2online.de

Regarding the King William County Whites and Hanover, the following facts should be kept in mind.

1. The Hollowing Creek grant was in 1722

2. It was in the part of St. Paul’s Parish that became St. Martin’s Parish in 1727.

3. There are no procession records between 1719 and 1731 which means that land was never mentioned in St. Paul’s registry as being White land.

4. In 1742, most of St. Martin’s Parish became Louisa County. Hollowing Creek extends into Louisa. Fred’s map shows the White land being on the Hanover side. But the Louisa deed mapper site list it in Louisa as plot # 580. In other words, researchers from both counties claim that grant as being in their county.

5. There are only two records from Hanover county other than grants and the Parish registry which mention White Land before 1742. They both appear to be the Hanover Whites not the King William set.

6.  The 1763 Quit Rent Rolls includes all of Hanover with the following lands:

Samuel White 100 acres in Precinct 19

James White 463 acres in precincts 16 and 25 acquired from Matheson

Elias White 60 acres, probably the John White’s orphans land in precinct 16 since Robert Braine is not list in the quit rent roll and Elias is not listed the procession record of 1763 but is in 1767.

Barret White 311 total acres. 211 is the 1705 Grant in precinct 15 the other 100 acres in precinct 22 inherited from his father in 1758 upon his father’s death.

John White 100 is the same 100 acres in precinct 22 listed under Barret in 1763.
 

7.  There is clearly no Hollowing Creek White land in Hanover in 1763.
8.  The 1729 Grant on both side of the South Anna included 1888 acres most of which fell in St. Martin’s Parish (north of South Anna)
     some of which was in Louisa. (Catherine White lived in Louisa in 1758 on part of that land).
9.  John White had land in Precinct 6 in 1731 but never thereafter. Apparently sold to George Norvel. This could have been either the
     1722 grant or the 1729 grant land. I lean toward the 1729 since it is believed that the King William County John White held on to the
      Hollowing Creek land longer than that.
 

 Feb 02, 2017      Back to Index^

Deb Responds and Writes to Michael Talley
From Deb   dtparks58@gmail.com

MIchael - all you write is correct and YET the White family that descended from John White of King Wm Co VA did live on in Hanover County. Perhaps their land does show up in the 1763 Quit Rent Rolls - just not how we had envisioned it being. I don't think we have the full picture of the Whites of Hanover County Virginia. Please follow my thinking below.

The attached SPOTSYLVANIA county deed dated 1743, James and his wife Sarah are living in Hanover County VA. IF the land they were living on was NOT the land in lower Hanover County (where James White first shows up in the St. Paul's processioning record) then this must have been the land on Hollowing Creek (where we know John White of King William County received a land grant). If the land that James and Sarah were living on in 1743 was in upper Hanover County, it is too bad we don't have the St. Martin's records for their processioning. Notice the Lee family connection - the family that was so close to Rev. Alexander White.

It is important to note that the land on Hollowing Creek was just south of the Beaverdam township - I've pasted a map of the location of Hollowing Creek (red pin) in relation to Beaverdam township.

With this in mind, take a look at the attached Lt. Wm White's Rev War (and widow's pension) pages where he and his family lived in Hanover County with a "Beaverdam Depot" address - into the mid 1800s. Also, notice that William named a son Chilion (same unusual name as in the Spotsylvani Co deed and King William Co family) and a son named James born too late to be Don's direct ancestor). But clearly the name James runs in this family. The transcription for the family of the Wm White/Partlow Bible is attached. Wm married Caty Thomas of Essex Co VA (attached) and he was born in Caroline County. And the family received their mail at the "Beaverdam Depot" (attached) which was and still is located in the Beaverdam Township - near Hollowing Creek. <https://www.visitrichmondva.com/listings/beaverdam-depot/2599/>

So, although this White family wasn't in St. Paul's area, they were in Hanover County. And had broader connections to other parts of Virginia.

Click here to open PDF File: Family Bible Wm White and Partlow Families:

Rev War Pension Papers of LT Wm White (Hanover co VA), Below:

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 Feb 03, 2017      Back to Index^

Michael Talley - to HP Group
mtalley@o2online.de

Hanover Land Tax

April 19, 1782

David Talley 350 acres
Capt Edward White 200 acres

April 20, 1782

Chillion White 552 acres
John White (Henrico) 100 acres
William Talley 100 acres
Joseph Talley 100 acres
Micajah Talley 50 acres Note: This 50 acres has been identified on the southeast corner of Talley Pond, between Pole Green Road and the main highway.
Mary Talley 125 aces
Nathaniel Talley W.H. 153 acres
Nathon Talley 225 acres
Ditto 92 acres
Elisha Talley 121 acres

April 23, 1782

Jacob Durham 200 acres
Nicholas Talley 125 acres
April 24, 1782
Charles Talley 100 acres
James White 300 acres

This is clearly a tax accessor going from one house to the next. Same date means close proximity. This is not the complete record for the year, there may be more Whites on another page.

Chillion White’s location is the area where Samuel White lived. Samuel is still listed in the parish registry in 1784 but is not listed here. I would not be surprised if Chillion, Capt Edward, and John, plus David and Elias (from the Parish records) are all sons of Samuel. John White above lived in Henrico. Chillion and James are in the census. Capt Edward is not. Likely counted in household with Chillion.

 Feb 03, 2017      Back to Index^

Deb Responds to  Michael Talley
From Deb   dtparks58@gmail.com

Agreed! That’s exactly why we are working so hard to unravel this twisted ball of White yarn. J It’s kind of like science, the more we learn, the more we find “we don’t know”.

AND we REALLY need to connect Don White’s line to a Hanover County Virginia family. Del’s line is well documented. With Don’s line, our documentation ENDS with an 1818 Cumberland County Kentucky deed connecting his James White to his deceased father’s estate (also named James White) in Hanover County. Identifying the James White estate in Hanover County would be so beneficial to our efforts. Don’s DNA without a strong paper trail isn’t really helping. Let’s find his elusive James White who died by 1818, leaving an estate/land in Hanover County!

 Feb 03, 2017      Back to Index^

Michael Talley reponds to Deb
mtalley@o2online.de

I have found only 3 or possibly 4 James Whites in the Hanover records though 1815.

1. James White b. bef. 1734 d. bef. 1767 (St. Paul’s precincts 16,25, & 26 1755, 1759, 1763, 1767, “James Whites heirs”)
2. James White, Sr. b. bef. 1746 d. 1796 (St. Paul’s precincts 16,26, & 4, 1767, 1771, 1779, 1784, apparent heir of
    James White above, 1782 property 300 acres, 1782 census 6wh 10bl, transferred 15 acres to Charles Talley, 1788
    property 285 acres. Father of James White, Jr. Ambrose, and Moses White. 1796 estate of.)
3. James White Jr. b. bef. 1761 (not mentioned on personal property tax after 1782 in the home of James White Sr.
    above with Ambrose and Moses White)
4. James White b. bef. 1791 (1812 & 1815) personal property tax)

#3 and #4 could be the same person but do not have to be. #4 too old to be son of William White of King William County. David White’s son James died by 1809.

Widow of #2 could be Lucy Sr. or Lucy Jr. of 1803 personal property tax. The other Lucy is definitely the widow of Elisha White.

The birth dates of #1 and 2# should be adjusted to allow more years between generations. 12 yrs. and 15 yrs. seem too small.

Possibility of a connection to both Caroline County and John White of Hanover. #1 was at least 35 when he obtained the Matheson land. Could he be a son of our John White who lived in Caroline until 1755? If so #3 could have easily been born as early as 1755 in Caroline. As I see it the only one who realistically could have married Lucy Woods 26 Nov 1787 in Orange, Virginia is #3

Ambrose and Moses are both in Hanover Census for 1810. In 1820 Moses is still there, but Ambrose is in Caroline.

Feel free to add to the list if you have found others.

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 Feb 04, 2017      Back to Index^

Deb Responds to  Michael Talley
From Deb   dtparks58@gmail.com

Good point! There may be some military records for James White. I’ll look at what I can find.

Regarding the older Lucy White of Hanover Co VA….she was the widow of Elisha White. Her will mentions sons Robert, John, Jesse, and Elisha. All were deceased by 1818. They also had a daughter named Lucy who died before 1784. In the 1810 Hanover Co VA census, Lucy White is listed as head of household as being 45 and over. I think she may have lived a very long time to have outlived all her children except daughter Katherine White Jackson. Elisha and Lucy White’s land holdings must have been vast.

So, Lucy White the elder was not the wife of James White.

In the name of God amen I Lucy White being in perfect mind and memory do make
and ordain this my last Will and Testament; after leaving my body to be
intured in a decent manner and committing my soul to God who gave it, do
dispose of my Estate as followeth; I wish my estate of land and my Negro
woman named M___ to be sold to the highest bidder on a credit of twelve
months and after paying my just debts, the money arising from the sale to be
divided into four equal parts, that is to say I give the children of my Deceased
son Robert White namely George, Lucy, Katherine, Sarah, Robert, Elizabeth &amp;
Nancy one fourth part to be equally divided among them or their legal
representative to them or their heirs forever. I give unto the children of
my Deceased son John White namely William, Nancy &amp; Katherine one fourth part to
be equally divided among them or their legal representatives to them or their
heirs forever. I give unto the children of my Dec’d son Jesse White namely
Thomas, John, Katherine, Elisha &amp; Lucy one fourth part which I direct that my
executor hereafter named shall ____ at interest until each of the aforesaid
children of Jesse White shall come to the age of Twenty one years old or
marry, then their proportions of the said one fourth part with the interest
shall be given to them or their legal representatives to them or their heirs
forever. Elisha C. White son of my Dec’d son Elisha White having a
sufficiency I give him one shilling. I give unto my daughter Katherine
Jackson one fourth part mentioned above all and every other piece of property
known to be mine to her and her heirs forever. Lastly I do nominate and
appoint my son in-law John Jackson Executor to this my last Will and
Testament making void all former wills by me made. In testimony whereof I
here unto set my hand &amp; seal this ninth day of December in the year of our
Lord One thousand eight hundred and eighteen.Â

Michael Talley to HP Group - See above entries on Edith White^
mtalley@o2online.de

EDITH WHITE

Looking at the 1810 Census at Edith White I was trying to determine whose widow she could be. With three sons and a daughter under 10 and a daughter 10-15 I determined that her husband must have died within the last three years of the decade before 1810. Being listed next door to Elisha White’s widow I considered a son of Elisha would be a likely candidate if any of them died in that time frame.

· Elisha White b. 1731, d. c1801 m. Lucy Price b. 1729, d. 1818
        o Jesse White b. c1756 Hanover County, Virginia, d. c1807 Hanover County,
          Virginia, m. Edith b. c 1765, d. bef. 1820 Hanover County, VA
             • Thomas White
             • John White b. c1800 d. Bef. 1840 b. Margaret Burruss
                    · Martha White 1829–
                    · James White 1830–
                    · Anthony White 1834–1857
             • Katherine White
             • Elisha White
             • Lucy White

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Michael Talley reponds to Liz above
mtalley@o2online.de

Elizabeth,

Col Wm White of Louisa and Hanover Co's VA
He may have been the brother of Barrett White,
Wm married Elizabeth White widow of Barrett?

PDF File: ' The Louisa County Historical Magazine Vol 3 No. 1, June 1971'

Click here to view the PDF File:

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Michael Talley reponds to Liz above
mtalley@o2online.de

Ambrose Sr. of Hanover is the son of James White who sold land to Charles Talley. The born dates of all but Moses are based on the idea that one must be of age to appear in the record unless it is indicated in the record that they were a minor or an orphan. Moses White was listed as a minor until 1786, hence his birth in 1765. Clearly the dates of the older generations need to be pushed back to make sense. Assuming James Jr. and Ambrose were not twins, James Sr. was probably born in the late 1730s pushing James back into the 1810s. I am now thinking he was probably a younger brother of John White Jr. and Samuel White by John Whites first marriage.

Thanks for this information on Ambrose White of Caroline. It was what I needed to confirm that the Ambrose White of Hanover is not the same as any of those in Caroline. Ambrose is clearly a family tradition that goes back further in the White family than just the late 1700s. By the 1830 census an Ambrose White can be found in Louisiana, Illinois, Virginia, and two in Kentucky.

The three sons of James White are all listed in the household of their father. James Jr. is an adult in 1782 and never appears in the record again.

Ambrose is also an adult in 1782 and is consistently in the record up to and including the 1810 Census. Ambrose Jr. Appears only once in 1805. He could be the Ambrose White in Franklin, KY in 1810 but he is probably not old enough to be the one there in 1830, but it could be Ambrose, Sr. If so he was born in the 1750s. I am not prepared to claim that Ambrose went to KY at all at this time.

Moses is a well-documented citizen of Hanover until his death in 1842. His will is available on the net.

There is a younger Moses who was perhaps a gardener who only appears in 1812. He is not list among the ten children of Moses, but could be a son of Ambrose. Col. William White of Louisa had a son named Moses who died 1794.

          Moses White          Gard.r          bef 1791             Last seen 1812

DNA from this line would be cool. Moses, son of James above had two sons but only one had children. This James was born early 1800s. I have not found his children in the census.

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  Feb 06, 2017      Back to Index^

Don White to Liz & HP Group
dwhite@hbwvlaw.com

I was going back through my files and found some things, if you already have these, sorry.

The first three files are jpg files of the Barrett White Family Bible. Perhaps some of the dates in here shed some light.

Also, I have attached pictures of Martin Baker White's tombstone and his wife Nancy. They are buried in Blackwell Cemetery, Seaton, Missouri.

 

Martin Baker White Blackwell Cemetery Seaton MO	Nancy J White Blackwell Cemetery Seaton MO

Michael Talley reponds to Liz/Don/HP Group
mtalley@o2online.de

I don’t think the Barret White you see in Hanover is the same who went to Kentucky, Although I am not sure what happened to him after 1840. He is in the 1810, 1830, and 1840 Census in Hanover. Cumberland Ky has a Barret White in 1820, 1840, and 1850 and possibly others. Both were born between 1780 and 1790 likely in Hanover.

Not all of our families went to Kentucky. During that time period there were two main ways to get out of Hanover, one was grant land in Kentucky, the other was South Carolina>Georgia. The thing to keep in mind is that there were two sets of Talleys and two sets of Thurmans in Hanover, with one set of each being descended from the Whites. We normally distinguish those as being HP. Cumberland had HP Thurmans, non-HP Talleys and Whites. Edgeville SC had HP Talleys and non-HP Thurmans and Whites. (Deb, correct me if I am wrong here). Mercer Co. Ky had HP Talleys, Hanover had Whites and non-HP Talleys who stayed. Some of the Talley lines out of Hanover have not been tested, so it is still possible to find more HP lines possibly even in Hanover. If you have questions about a particular Talley I can let you know if that line has been tested. Deborah can do the same with Thurmans.

My Talley line went the southern route through SC>GA.

Michael Talley  to HP Group
mtalley@o2online.de

New Stuff - White's in New Kent Co VA - 1702

I was reading an old Genforum post on the web today and saw a reference to “Bockstruck, Lloyd DeWitt. Virginia's Colonial Soldiers” and the fact that John White was mustered into the militia in New Kent County on July 4, 1702. So I quickly found a partial copy of the book on google to see who else was on the list, but not expecting there to be other Whites.

I was wrong.

On the same day, in New Kent county, on July 4, 1702 are the names, Robert White, Jeremiah White, and John White.

Earliest references to White in New Kent.

1695 John White road surveyor
1697 John White son of John White was baptized
1702 Robert White, Jeremiah White, and John White in the militia
1704 John White on Quit Rent Roll

Michael Talley  to HP Group
mtalley@o2online.de

More Good Stuff

From the same work as earlier

The locations at the end appear to be the location where the document was recorded and not necessarily an indication of where they lived or served at any given time. It is apparent that in 1780 the military records of citizen’s were being reviewed, probably in relation to possible benefits including land grants, pensions, etc. These hearing were held in various locations, so you could go to one held near you or travel to one where a particular witness needed to verify your service would be located.

For Chapman White there were two entries on the same day for different purposes, which is why they were recorded in different books. One listed the unit in which he served, the other listed his heir-at-law. This is likely Moses White of Louisa if anyone has information on that family.

The Samuel White entry is of particular interest. First, he is a Jr. While this means little in the Parish registry, in this type of record it almost certainly means his father’s name was Samuel. His heir at law is Elias White, of which there were at least three separate men by that name in Hanover around that time. I have not identified the father of any of the three of them, but one has a son named Nathan White, and another a son named John White.

Although the document is from a King William county proceeding, all the names are Hanover including the officers. I have Samuel Meredith’s signature on a document relating to the service of Elisha Talley in the revolution.

If this is indeed the Son of Samuel White, then this adds at least one son to Samuel and possibly two. If Elias was his heir-at-law to Samuel White Jr. then Elias could be either son or brother to him. Brother is more likely than son as Elias appears to be of age. If so the Samuel White Sr. was probably deceased by this time as well.

Michael

The two sources and other similar ones from that time period have a lot of references to Whites. The online version on google books was only a sample.

The books are:

Crozier, William Armstrong. Virginia Colonial Militia, 1651-1776
Bockstruck, Lloyd DeWitt. Virginia's Colonial Soldiers

That's a great find!

Just random bits of information.

One reason I thought Jeremiah was around Richmond was because a descendant married a Kidd, and the Kidd Family was in Hanover Co. I just looked at my Wikitree Site and Chet Snow and Mary Atkins are managers of the John White, Jr. link, and they list brothers of John White as Jeremiah and Daniel White. I've seen references to a Mary White Price, daughter of Col. John White, as well as the reference to Col. William White, as a son of John White. I am listed as the Manager of Barrett's link now, but some of the information was not added by me, but by someone who was removed by the "White expert." It says Barrett had sisters named Mary Margaret and Margaret, both married to Prices. I still haven't seen documentation for my John White as being a Col. or definitive proof of any of this information. If I don't come up with someone soon, I'll remove that information.

I have an index of some colonial militia muster records for John Jackson, William Baker, John and Hugh Martin, John Smith, and John White in Admiralty Muster Books for 1742-1744. Henry Foster and John White are listed for 1745-46. John White and John Smith are included in a list that covers S-W in 1751-1755. Usually they are described as men who left Virginia or joined there, but there is no reference to any county.

A pay bill for the Detachment sent to Augusta under Cpt. Andrew Lewis for July-Sept 1754 included: Ja:s Smith, John Chapman, Thomas King, William Chaplain. Cpt. Peter Hog's Company included Privates Rob:t Jones in Oct 1754. Private John White was in Cpt. Thomas Waggoner's Co where ...Lewis was the Sergeant. Private Cha:s and Rich:d Smith were in Capt. Poulston's Co. However, I don't know anything about these people other than this list. As a reminder, Barrett and Elizabeth's son John White, was born in 1758, and he died in Georgia in 1779. There was a Rev. War battle at Augusta. Based on my vague recollection, Lewis was connected to VA militia.

I also have a list of Caroline Co Militia in 1781, including Lt. Edward Jones, Sr, Serg't Jn White, Elijah White, Jn Jones, Chris Smith and Rich Beazley. That county was formed from several other counties over time, including New Kent, and King William.

The 1800 Personal Property list for Surry Co includes James Smith, William Smith, James White (son of Harry) and Elizabeth White.

Just random bits of information. Liz

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Michael Talley  to HP Group
mtalley@o2online.de

White's mentioned in 1672 in New Kent Co VA Grant

Correct me if I am wrong, but that looks like Phillip White to me. (Bottom entry)

Elizabeth Edmonds - HP Group - Barrett White 1790-1858
edmondselizabeth1@gmail.com

Two Barrett White's War of 1812 Records:

 

A couple of weeks ago, I sent a couple of War of 1812 military records for Barrett White. One was in Virginia (1812); the other in Kentucky (1812-1815). See attached. I know nothing else about them, except that there is no evidence that they are related to me.

If you are interested in the War of 1812 soldiers, you can check Fold 3 (or whatever it's called), except I don't think the indexing has gotten to "Ws" yet. I may be wrong; I haven't checked in a while.

You also can check the Museum of the War of 1812 library database. The museum and library is located in DC. The WEB site includes a list of documents; it is difficult to use. I think I went through individual items on line, which took a couple of hours. I've gone to the museum library a couple of times. It's open once a week, and it is not well organized. However, if you find a specific item that is only available there, I will try to check for it in the next couple of months, depending on weather and other commitments. Liz

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Michael Talley  to HP Group
mtalley@o2online.de

1704 White's and more -  Quit Rents 1704 - Various related Counties - Other Info.

Below is a list of all the Whites who paid quit rent in 1704. If I am county right there are no more than 19. There could be less as some of the names which were doubled were in counties that bordered one another. Below the names is a map of the counties as they were in 1704. The next changes to counties was in 1720 when Hanover and Brunswick were formed.

On 9 April 1639, a John White received a 350 acre grant on the hither side of the Chickahominy. James City County included the land south of the river which later became Surry County part of which became Brunswick County.

A transcription I found on the web which didn’t list the source is a transaction which I believe involves part of this grant:

"I John White do hereby give and freely give unto Charles White for considerancons rec'd in hand of the sd Charles White of London mariner, One hundred acres of land lying and being neere the falls upon dis-tance of three miles from the falls beginning upon my first entry upon the first Survey. Witnes my hand this 13th Day of Aprill 1658 being my owne land per me John White. Test: John Posled [sic], Christoper Batt, Walter Holdsworth Recognit in Cur April 20, 1658 per Edd Mosby and John White suprad't. Rec 12 May 1658."

Either this “Charles White of London” or his son is the Charles below in Surry County, the “Mrs. Mary White” may have been John’s widow. And Charles of Surry (the son) received a grant in Brunswick County in 1728 which was about fifteen miles north of the Roanoke river. This could be the family of Mike White’s ancestors. Our ancestors from Hanover could have also came from this family. Does anyone know where the first falls on the Chickahominy was located. I had always though it was Hanover, but I may be thinking of the James where Richmond was located at the falls.

Based upon DNA we know that the Brunswick and Hanover lines are connected. What I have given here is not proof of how they connect, but an outline for more research.

1704 - Quit Rents for surname 'White'

From Elizabeth Edmonds:

 Feb 10, 2017      Back to Index^

Good thinking Michael. And thank you for sharing all those 1704 Whites and map.

There were actually 3 land grants involving John White in 1639. And the first shows that he either owned or had settled on land near the Chickahominy before April 10, 1639. If he had just settled the land but didn’t have ownership, that might explain the grant 10 days later on April 20, 1639. I don’t know. The 3^{rd grant appears to be a change in the amount of acreage from the April 20, 1639 grant.}

Michael Talley  to HP Group
mtalley@o2online.de

John White of Roanoke Colony - Theory

This last thing I sent got me thinking.

John White Governor of the Roanoke Colony was known as John White of London. There is a good chance that many of these original White settlers were from his family. I mentioned in the last email a White referred to as “Charles White of London”. It is possible that many of the early White of Virginia including ours were from this family.

But there is also something else:

In addition to John White and his daughter, there was also an adult male named Cutbert White as well as a daughter of John White, Eleanor Dare among the colonist. If this lost colony was taken in by an Indian tribe as many historians believe may have occurred. Cutbert White who was apparently unmarried at the time could have had children. Since surnames were not yet common among the Indians, this could have led to the existence of this YDNA signature appearing among Indians who did not take his name. Descendants of these Indians who later married daughters of settlers may have taken the surname of the family they married into.

I know that sounds a little far out, but so is the idea of John White the Vestryman the father of a line that has produced 100s of reverends in multiple denominations giving his DNA to multiple families. Explaining Talley Durham and Thurman from Hanover works, but what about Morgan and Adams and Sorrell. It would be interesting to know if other surnames from Roanoke also have this situation.

Elizabeth Edmonds - RE: to Michael above
edmondselizabeth1@gmail.com

Suggest some HP Group may be related to Croshaw line, ie, Joseph, Henry & Mary White

Click here to view Attached PDF File:

According to Henry White's will which was transcribed at Ancestry, no John White is listed, but a Joseph White is; however, he didn't live a long time. Henry is listed as marrying Mary Croshaw, daughter of Joseph Croshaw. Yet people say that Henry also had a son named John. Who knows. See attached. I also struggled to copy the Joseph Croshaw Will off microfilm at the end of the day when they were kicking us out none too gently. I thought I should figure out what it really said. It was scanned to a thumb drive, or not, but hopefully, I can figure that out.

It's entirely possible that some of you may be related through the Croshaw connection.

Henry's Joseph died young, but some other Joseph may be the recipient of the land listed in 1720. Because both Joseph Croshaw and Henry White acquired a lot of land. They were in York County. New Kent was formed from York Co. See attached partial chronological list of county formation.

This Ancestry article discusses 1,000 acres of land bought by Henry White & Peter Gill on the Chickahominy; however, the land was not processed appropriately, so it was re-granted to someone else in a few years.

I note that the idea of one John White in New Kent County/Hanover County isn't accurate by 1720, assuming both John White and his son, John White, were still alive.

 Feb 10, 2017      Back to Index^

Ref Mike White's 1871 Letter "Robt born near Roanoke River..." And Provides a Link to Lost Roanoke Colony:

And let’s not forget Mike White’s historical family letter that states that his Robert White was born 1743 near the Roanoke River. Here’s an article of the colony, John White, and the Chowan/Roanoke Rivers.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/47288500/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/scientists-report-new-clue-fate-roanoke-lost-colony/#.WLmsO2czWUl

For those who haven’t visited Mike’s website, here you go!
http://www.white-family.com/robert_w1a.htm

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Elizabeth Edmonds - to HP Group
edmondselizabeth1@gmail.com

I'm organizing files for closing most of this research project. However, I think this book may be relevant, so I'm sending parts in 3 emails, which I sent to Deborah in Nov. & Dec.

I have more, but I'm not going to scan it now because I want to spend time on the direct line of my Whites.

If this looks relevant to you, I suggest you check for this book in your local libraries or consider requesting it through interlibrary loan.

I copied these pages from the book in the DAR library. Liz

Book Excerpts: If Relevant to your Linage - John & Stephen White VA to KY

Click each of the '3' PDF Links Below view the files:
(If you want can have this book sent to your local library)

PDF 1 - John & Stephen White KY

PDF 2 - John & Stephen White KY

PDF 3 - John & Stephen White KY

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Michael Talley  to HP Group
mtalley@o2online.de

New DNA Match - Results and where the HP Group stands today:

What we have is exactly the opposite of the situation with Durham, Thurman,
and Talley. Del not only doesn't match Hanover Whites, he doesn't match any
other Whites. Unfortunately, he was so disappointed with that result, that
he chose against additional testing. He only took a twelve marker test and
has a total of 13 matches, eleven with the surname Watts. I was able to talk
him in to joining our project so that we would have access to his numbers
incase another White turned out to be a match. But it hasn't worked out that
way. We now have very good evidence that we all match John White of Hanover,
grandfather of Barret White. Don's line is a little week on the paper side
although we are working on it, but DNA confirms close relationship to
Hanover Whites. The known father-son-son James combo of Hanover has been
eliminated and we are now looking at David who appears to be a son of
Samuel. It would be good if we can get Robert to upgrade to more STRs to see
is there is a connection, but for now he is 100% modal on 37 markers as is
Arthur Talley and White (Bittinger) In other words, he has John White's
unmutated DNA on these 37 markers. This gives us a good starting place on
STRs.

But there is more. David Talley, from Elkanah's line has his Big Y results
already. He appears to be a perfect match with White Bittinger on Known
SNPs. That means that we also have isolated John White's Big Y profile. I do
not yet have full access to this test, but we know for sure now that BY6635
and BY6641 are exclusive to Micajah Talley's line.

We need a Nathan Talley descendant and a Mercer KY Talley to take a SNP
Pack, but beyond that we need more STRs such as those included in the Big Y
to hopefully sort out the lines. There are around 400 total and they can
only be viewed by first having the Big analyzed by a third party such as
Yfull. So far only my test has been analyzed in this way.

It will be interesting to learn Larry White's line. If I were a betting man
I would say it goes back to Hanover.

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